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Turbulence at night

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Andreas	Turbulence at night	Lead	[-]
Posts: 1 (08/16/08 08:31:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : turbulence I know that turbulence is not dangerous and I have seen the website of the hurricane hunters, but will still appreciate it if someone can please answer the following questions: I have read that there is less turbulence during night flights because the sun isn't around to cause convexing mixing of the air, but what other factors can cause turbulence when flying at night, besides thunderstorms? Are there less storms at night? Can clear air turbulence occur at night? Will turbulence be less at night when flying over mountains? One can always expect some bumps, but does moderate or severe turbulence happen even less often during night flights? I ask specifically about this because I read about people who vomitted after such turbulence. I don't like being sick on top of being jittery. How long will moderate turbulence usually last during night time? Can it go on for hours? If it can, is it rare? I know that one can't measure such things exactly, but if someone can say something approximate about this, it would be great. Besides mountains, are there areas of the world where there is more turbulence than other places, like the Atlantic for instance? Are there mountains, jetstreams or other factors that will cause a bumpy ride from London to Delhi, or is this usually a calm route at night? I ask because I'm going there. A last question off topic: have they fixed the problem with the 777 after BA ate grass? Thanks!
Capt Tom Bunn MSW LCSW		#1	[-]
Posts: 2347 (08/16/08 09:46:50) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Clear air turbulence, being caused by the jetstream which in turn is caused by the earth's rotation, is the same day or night. The same is true in mountainous areas; day or night is the same. The difference between day and night is that the sun interacts with moisture to cause thunderstorms. They are somewhat less late at night or early in the morning. I thing you need to give up fretting about whether there will be turbulence or not; turbulence is a fact of life, and one that presents no threat to the plane. Your best avenue of relief is understanding that you view of turbulence has no connection with reality; simply because you imagine it to be a problem means nothing; your fantasy does not change the facts. It is not a problem. Perhaps, since you may have imagined turbulence leading to disaster so many times, you accept this as meaningful; it isn't. The BA accident was a fuel supply problem, but the details have not been released as yet.
Andreas		#2	[-]
Posts: 2 (08/16/08 10:41:21) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Thanks for your reply! As I said, I know that turbulence is not dangerous, just as a rollercoaster or a scary movie is very safe, but moderate to severe turbulence can still be uncomfortable, especially if it suddenly happens. Since I don't like such surprises when I am sleepy at night, it would be great to know more about how turbulence works when the moon is out. I think I read a reply in this forum where you answered that turbulence is not a problem in that part of the world where the fearful flier was going, and that's why I asked about the London - Delhi route. You can't predict the weather, I know, but some places are worse than others, like Cape Horn when sailing, and therefore it would be nice to know if one can expect major bumps in the road when flying to Delhi. Do you cross the jestream for instance in September, is the moonsoon a problem at this time of the year? I am curious, how many feet does the plane usually fall during moderate to severe turbulence? Does the 100 feet plunge happen often? Have you experienced that? Was it fun? As you see, I have the same attitude towards turbulence as I have towards scary movies. More than a real fear of crashing, it is the fear of the sudden jolt of falling ten meters that is annoying and keeps me alert when I should be sleeping. I just thought that a little knowledge about turbulence could reduce the nuisance. Again thanks a lot!
Capt Tom Bunn MSW LCSW		#3	[-]
Posts: 2348 (08/16/08 18:56:58) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	In turbulence, the plane does not move enough for it to show up on the altimeter; it is generally less than an inch. That, of course, is hard to believe. But consider when you go across a three inch speed bump, you cross it at 10 MPH and still get a big jolt. That means at 50 MPH you would get the same jolt for about a one inch bump. And the same at 100 with a 1/2 inch bump. At 200 with 1/4 inch At 400 1/8th inch.
Andreas		#4	[-]
Posts: 3 (08/17/08 02:44:35) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Thanks for reply. How much must a plane fall before the altimeter detects it? Brendastarlet wrote the following on this forum: I flipped on the "follow the plane" screen on my seat TV. I found out that even while we were in turbulence, the altitude changed by only a few feet -- if at all -- and the speed of the plane didn't change at all. We never dropped more than 10 feet at any time, and sometimes our altitude went up a little bit. As mentioned before, it is moderate to severe turbulence I am concerned about. Imagine being in a modern rescue boat which can roll around in the water without ever sinking. It is completely safe, but wouldn't you be a little alert if the captain said that at any time the boat could be hit by a twenty meter high wave, just like an airplane at any time could be hit by CAT. As I see it, this is not so much about fear of crashing, but fear of being taken on an involuntary rollercoaster when you are not prepared, perhaps even sleeping, and suddenly waking up around people who are screaming, puking, and being tossed around like rag dolls. The stories told here got me concerned about this. Like this one for instance: Without warning (is there ever a real warning?!) the rear of the plane pushed upward before the "bottom fell out", prompting screams from most of the passengers, not to mention a "what the f***" from a FA that was trying to navigate the aisle back to his seat! Our captain quickly radio'd to Denver Center and reported a "400 foot vertical deviation". Thankfully, that was all that Mother Nature had cooked up for us on that flight. The worst turbulence I've ever endured was on a 763 (AC34 SYD-HNL) last November. Nine hours of white knuckle flying, practically no service (too dangerous), brought on by a frontal system over eastern Australia, t-storm buildup in the ITCZ and a dip in the jet stream that more or less sat on top of our entire flight route. We tried everything from 31K-40K feet, but were met with at least moderate turbulence and chop for the entire flight. I had the "pleasure" of sitting in the second to last row of Y class (funny, because we booked C class tickets through UA but that's another story) and could actually see the fuselage flexing for most of the fflight. People were getting sick left and right, and bins popped open on a couple of occasions but it's not like you can deviate or divert when transitting the Pacific (5,000+nm) in a 763. To their credit, the flight deck tried everything and kept the pax informed of what was going on and what to expect. They subsequently apologized for the experience while we taxiied to the gate in HNL. This story gives an indication about how often and severe turbulence happens: Ive had severe turbulence once out of approx. 400,000 miles of flying. The only way I know it was severe is because the pilot told me at the end of the flight that it was. I suppose that he would know because he said that in 30 years of flying it was the worst he had encountered. It was a horrible experiance. The plane felt like it was on its side at one point. Not sure if it really was, but it sure felt like it. It lasted 5 min. So my main question is still: how often does severe turbulence happen, approximately, for example on a flight from London to Delhi. Is this someting I have to think about when trying to sleep, or is it so rare that you have to be really unlucky (or lucky if you are a bored pilot thinking of sex and investments)?
Andreas		#5	[-]
Posts: 4 (08/17/08 07:42:42) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Found this here: "Of the many, many pilots i have talked with (myself included) most have never experienced severe turbulence. And, if they did most diverted pretty soon after because you don't want to fly in it. I personally have had some things start to float on me for a second or two but even that was probably moderate at the most." And also this: "I've been a major airline pilot for almost 10 years, with 10,000 hours of flight time, and have encountered "severe turbulence" twice...and it lasted no more than a minute..." And this: "I have flown thousands of hours, and encountered bad turbulence only about a dozen times. Usually the pilots change altitude to reduce the turbulence." If it happens, I think the best attitude is this: "My worst (or rather fun!) experience was on a Delta flight from atlanta to san diego couple of years ago. We hit some bad air close to san diego and were tossed around for good 20-25 mins. It seemed like a roller coaster ride and I could hear the engines rev up and pilot was nice enough to give us a warning ahead of time!! Once it started there were screams all over the place...but you could also hear some kids shouting: AWESOME...DO IT AGAIN" "Back in the winter 2006 (31th December-1st January) I flew with BA from LAX to LHR. About 2/3 of the flight the seat belt sign was on. This was really funny because I just love when the aircraft shakes around. I always pray to god that it will be turbulent. I just love it." Easy to say when you are not dead tired after 12 hours of traveling and trying to sleep...
Capt Tom Bunn MSW LCSW		#6	[-]
Posts: 2350 (08/17/08 11:31:08) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Even if you saw the altitude number change on the seat TV, that does not mean the place actually changed at all. That altitude number is based on air pressure which changes all the time, particularly in turbulence, even though the plane has not changed altitude one bit. " . . . hit by CAT . . . " But CAT is nothing more than a wind of two to four MPH which you are running into at 500 MPH. You can imagine a twenty meter wave on the ocean and think that has something to do with aviation, but it doesn't. How often does severe turbulence happen? In my career, once when I was a copilot and a captain without balls enough to refuse instructions ATC gave him flew through a thunderstorm. But it lasted only about seven seconds. Except for that, I have never been in turbulence when I could not walk around the front of the plane (the back is different; it moves around a lot more).
Andreas		#7	[-]
Posts: 6 (08/17/08 13:16:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Is CAT always slow air or can you have winds at 100 mph smashing into the side of the fuselage? Found even more on the topic here.
Capt Tom Bunn MSW LCSW		#8	[-]
Posts: 2353 (08/18/08 04:17:36) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	You can get CAT anytime a layer of slower and a layer of faster air scrub against each other. The speed difference between the two layers is what counts, and generally the higher the speed, the more likely the differential is to be significant. But keep in mind, it is only two to four MPH difference being amplified by the speed of the plane.

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Note from Capt. Tom

I know everyone worries about weather, but pilots really do not worry about it. We simply - instead of worrying about it - completely prepare for it. Before going to the plane, we review the weather at the destination. If it is not 100% sure to be within legal limits when we arrive at the destination, we must specify an alternate airport in our planning documents, and load on plenty of fuel for going to the destination airport, and then if need be, diverting to the alternate airport.

The legal limits are conservative. Even when weather is slightly outside the legal limits, any airline pilot could still land safely. You can rely on the captain never to land when the weather is not legal, and legality limits are reached prior to safety limits.

If you are still anxious, call me and we can talk it over. I'm at 877 332-7359 from 10 AM until 7 PM Eastern time.

For effective help, even if you are flying in a day or two, sign up now at www.fearofflying.com/fasttrack and call me when you finish Clip 9 so I can make sure you are all set.

Using Weather Information

If you enter your ZIP Code or City at the top of the weather presentation, it will give you weather for your area. Or, you can enter your destination ZIP Code or City.

Click on the "LOCAL RADAR" button to see whether or not there are thunder-
storms. Keep in mind, however, that we can either fly above the storms when cruising or fly through gaps between storms. During landing, we cannot fly above them, but fly through gaps, or through the area of the storms where the turbulence is least.

Turbulence, though it may cause anxiety, does not mean anything is wrong. Turbulence does not mean danger. The plane can handle far more turbulence than Mother Nature can dish out.

Though flying in turbulence is safe, it doesn't feel safe. And here is where the SOAR programs come in. We can help you feel as safe when you fly as you actually are.

You can see these programs at www.fearofflying.com/store.

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